What is original mesh?
Original mesh is defined as any mesh that was originated SOLELY for one brand’s use and will never be used in another store, whether it was made by the store owner, or by someone else for the store owner.
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Honestly, I find that the excess of super cheap templates (ala Meli Imako) is definitely having a detrimental effect on profit & the emergence of smaller original mesh creators.
I prefer original designs, and attempt to purchase them soley if at all known. I feel that it helps reinforce that *those* are the type of creations we need… I don’t think a sticker on the vendor or whatever has to do with it, not even seen one of those. I just believe that an original & creative Second Life is more true to it’s roots, and selling templated designs, especially when you violate the agreement you made when you bought them (for example, many people give away Meli Imako stuff, when you are strictly prohibited from doing so) is really ‘cheap’…
If the texturing and such makes it not even seem like the original at all, and doesn’t have massive alpha problems (like making a miniskirt out of a full length mesh… Sn@tched did this I think, looked awful around alpha stuff)… I might consider it. But most people it’s pretty obvious.
I want to support original creations, same as I support ethical and smaller businesses RL if I have the choice, even if it is marginally more expensive… Just my 2c. I like to think people attempt to make good choices for the better of everyone… but I know in my heart the reality is different, and all everyone cares about is price.
Some people do not have the skills to create mesh but are extremely skilled in texturing. To say that you think only original content mesh creators should be able to sell is sorta asinine.
YUGH!
I wish there was a filter on marketplace search (well I want several) but specifically for something like ‘original’ vs ‘template’ (I also want one that only shows mesh, though searching ‘mesh’ tends to work)
For me, it’s equal parts of not wanting to look like a clone of everyone else and wanting the textures, ‘fabric’ and fit of the item to actually look good and realistic. Sure there are some full-perm ‘template’ makers (such as Miel Imako) who do this, but then people go and charge L$200 for something that only cost them L$200 to buy and I look blankly at their ad before scrolling on. Or they add a cruddy texture instead of the provided one and suddenly it doesn’t matter how well made the item is, the poor texturing ruins it…
Yep, chalk me up for being a snob, but I *DONT* see snobbery as bad in this instance.
I’ve been rambling about this on FB lately…. I always prefer original mesh items. Occasionally, I will purchase something that is made from a full-perm mesh if it has a fantastic texture on it, but it has to be something absolutely stand out, because otherwise, its the same as the item that every shop seems to be churning out. The difference is only the “fabric” chosen.
And quite frankly, selling an item that is all over the grid, (the equivalent of mass production, just with different makers) doesn’t encourage me in any way to return to their store and see what else they have to offer.
Why bother? I can see similar items everywhere.
I prefer original mesh for sure. If I buy something that is template mesh, not only does the texturing have to be perfect- but also the price has to be reasonable. The people out there selling template mesh for the same prices (250-500) as original mesh creations make me mad. In my opinion most template mesh should not be sold for more than about 100L. I said most because most of it is 300L or under for full perms. However there are a few templates that are being sold for more (which I think they should be so we are not inundated with the same crap)- like 2000-3000 for full perm mesh- and those could be sold for more.
As far as being able to “tell”- I did a blog post on this a while ago with some tips. It is sometimes hard to tell if its a brand new template and we have not seen it all over the grid yet. One clue is if the store has any other original mesh. If not, the “new release” is most likely template. The other thing you can do to be an informed shopper is look on marketplace. When I was researching for my blog post- it did not take me long to locate the full perm templates and include those links. What I found was that there is a separate place for mesh templates on marketplace and some things will be in there- but they did not add that until recently – so most things will be under sculpt full perm templates. Now that they have the separate place for mesh templates, I think we can safely search there to check designs. You go to marketplace –> Building components —> Mesh Creator tools OR Sculpted Prim Creator Tools (and this is broken up into subcategories- shoes, clothing, etc).
Hi! ^^
The question does not arise for me. My computer does not accept Mesh versions of viewers. It only works with Phoenix 1.5.
I’ll answer in a general way.
Original or not, Mesh, or sculpties, the most important for me is: base sculpties or mesh, impeccable, neat texture, retain my attention. I do not care if the item is an original. The rest is ego creator.
Sorry, for my english very bad. ;P
.:MANNA:.
I must confess, I do not care whether it is original or a template. I buy a lot of both, which I think it fits my style, no matter where it comes from 🙂
Sure, in the original must be relatively more expensive than the templates. I would never pay for a template as much as for an original. You cannot take the same price for a template as for a completely selfmade item, agree? But I also like to buy cheap or cheaper and if the texture is done well, why not?
The point of individuality doesn’t count for me. If I buy an item at a typical mesh-store, I can assume that half of the grid carries the same things, with the same texture, but different colors of … uhm 10?
So why no templates, where there are 50 designers and I have a variety of textures?
I think the point is, the item must have a good texture and the price has to match the input a creator give to the item, so … yes, original mesh-items have to be more expensive, but I’m always happy about creators who uses templates, make very good textures and sell their items for an affordable price.
Sawa
I do not know if you’re aware of something.
Many creators do not know make mesh (high quality or professional quality) but know perfectly used photoshop (or other editing software).
(Personally, I am a graphic designer Publicity PAO in RL).
Meli help many small designers. And if she sells these items full perms to 200 or 250 L $, I do not see anything wrong with that. She has the performance, frequently releases new full perms. In terms of marketing, I see nothing to complain about. This is business! Lots of “big” brands have understood.
1 / Finding a high quality full perm is a miracle.
2 / Then there is the issue of textures laid on a full perms … If the mesh is poor, the result … deplorable.
3 / originality in the fabric: it is easy to create your own tissue when you know how to use editing software. Without using textures Deviantart.
4 / LL closes the door to many designers incorporating mesh gambling
5 / Many creators are gone or no longer create new.
6 / SL is increasingly addressed by 3D professionals and zap “Mr and Mrs everybody”. Not fun!
7 / Some designers simply reproduce RL things, well executed but without any originality.
8 / Some designers have left their shop on the game but are no longer there. The arrival of the mesh on the game precipitated some departures.
That’s the reality.
My conclusion: SL will become a “game” of professionals or a small elite céators / designer can express themselves, and they will put the market at will. Closing the door to alot of people who would also like to express themselves in a creative way. This is my opinion.
(It’s really hard to write in English, I hope you understand me ;s)
.:MANNA:. (bis xD)
i want to blog a list of all the stores who have original mesh designs, i know of a few but i’m sure i’m missing out on quite a few more.
I am usually a mesh snob and 98% of the time will only purchase original mesh. I can’t really explain why; it just feels wrong buying something if I know the creator didn’t make it. Also, I’ve noticed that many creators who use templates charge just as much as the creators with original mesh, and that is just immoral because they are ripping people off. However, once in a blue moon I will purchase mesh items that are made from templates if I am desperately searching a particular item and I cannot find one made from original mesh. One time I was looking for a shirt with a specific design and the only one that I could find was made from a template. Another instance where I’d buy nonoriginal mesh is if its cheap (100 L or under) and I am trying to put together a certain look and the mesh item I am seeking is not the focal point of my outfit.
I am a mesh snob, and I am going to make one point…anyone who has the Photoshop ability to re-texture a full template to the point where I would be interested in buying it (and I can spot a full perm template the way a rl fashionista can spot a fake Gucci bag) probably has the ability–if they seriously apply themselves–to figure out a 3D modelling program an making their own mesh.
I know this as an artist, if you are creative, and you apply yourself, you can learn how to make pretty much anything.
I totally agree with you…once you apply yourself you can do whatever you set your mind to.
I think some of these comments really have a punishing attitude towards people who use mesh templates, going along the lines of “unoriginal” and comparing it to a fake Gucci bag.
Okay. Actually, it takes a lot of time to learn mesh. People actually go to school to learn how to use programs like Blender and Maya correctly–because without doing so, your mesh will not look right. It will look jagged and won’t work with SL avatar animation.
In addition, making mesh is completely different from Photoshop. It’s not like opening it up, clicking a few buttons and creating a triangle. You have to know how to design on different planes and just a ton of knowledge about the different tools that come with CAD programs. It’s really not that simple as Photoshop, which isn’t really that simple either. It takes people years to learn how to texture and draw accurately, and probably another year or more to do it for Second Life.
I actually love mesh templates. I think it’s an incredible way to allow texture creators and mesh designers to come together. In addition, there is another argument that “original” mesh is not always the work of the designer. People actually post jobs to create mesh items and then buy the rights to sell them on Second Life as their own.
Honestly, this competition of original and unoriginal, talentless and talented or fake and real is just kind of irritating to people who do put a ton of work into creating textures. Not to mention how lucky the Second Life community is to even have the ability to do what it does with mesh. A year ago, this wasn’t even an issue.
Personally i don’t care. If the item looks good then why not purchase it? some people are assuming that just because the creator didn’t make the actual sculpted item that they’re ‘lazy’ and deem them not worth their time. I’ve seen some fabulous creations from creators using templates. Unfortunately alot of people with the creativity don’t have the skill needed to work 3D modelling programs. I myself have only just learned the BASICS of creating a mesh object and even then, it’s taken me a long time. If you opened one of those meshing programs for the first time you’d nope yourself out of it. It’s daunting and technical. Im not saying they cannot learn but for someone starting out and learning these things it’s best to start off small and if you need somewhere to start off then why not templates? i think they’re a great idea for small businesses/new businesses and people who want to dab their toes into the designing world of SL. To write them off as copycats and people who lack creativity is in my opinion, wrong. It’s nice to see Meli for example sharing her templates for people who without them, wouldn’t know where to start. Thats pretty much my opinion on it anyway, im not averse to buying a template created item if it is nice.
While I do think that templates do provide an option for those people who don’t have their mesh skills yet, it’s led to a glut of look-alike fashion. Unless you’re a hardcore SL fashionista you won’t know the template stuff from the original.
And here’s what puzzles me:
Why don’t the mesh template creators start their own brands and stop selling their templates to every “art-school girl with photoshop skills” out there. THEY could be making the L$ the sellers of templated goods are, which is probably more than what they’re earning just selling templates.
I think the problem is that many template users want the same level of respect as original mesh creators…which is like the interior designer wanting the same level or credit as the architect… Re-read my previous content I never said anything about un-originality, just that to me, template use is obvious, and that anyone who has the texture making skills to make a template original, could probably learn a 3D modeling program if they tried. Any artistic medium/technique is going to be frustrating and daunting to learn when you’re not familiar with it, and yes, templates give many people a starting point, but as happened pre-mesh with all the system layer templates, I think in many cases they just serve as a crutch and hold people back from creating their own material.
So you learn something new…and what you make sucks at first, an you make some more, and that sucks too…well welcome to the life of an artist where you make a lot of crap before you make something worth selling. If templates help you avoid that crucial development stage and produce mediocre stuff you can sell right away, well kudos.
Hi GoGo and juicybomb readers 😀
I thought i would comment because this is something i have noticed a lot of late… for me it really depends on the item and also how well the person using the template has made it into their own thing. For things like decor and random items to wear on your av, i am happy if they at least make an effort to make it into something that might be same base as someone else can buy but changed in a way that says its is this creators mark or take on the creation. Texturing for sure can be something that i would accept as long as it is really well done.
What upsets me is to find a sculpt or mesh template kit that has been brought and put together same as anyone could do and than selling it as half or more as the original. I just think even as a template based creator you need to make it more and stand out, We all work hard for our linden and its disappointing when you find something you brought is something you could buy again off another. Sorry for the ramble 😀
Two things:
@CronoCloud Creegan – Mesh creators don’t necessarily want to texture. It’s an entirely different field. They are also art school kids. The best collaboration of mesh creators comes from people who create the mesh and others who can texture the mesh. However, some people don’t want to do the teamwork and would rather work on an individual level.
@Fleety – Well you did compare it to wearing a fake Gucci bag. I don’t think it’s right for you to be so condescending about the reasons why people use a mesh template. Texture making takes a lot of time and experience to create, and you shouldn’t diminish that and call it mediocre. You also don’t have to school anyone on the life of an artist. Everyone knows that it takes work to make beautiful things. You also did not address any of the points that I made about the differences between Photoshop/Gimp and Blender/MAYA/mesh creation programs. It’s two entirely different programs.
Also, just to point out, mesh did not create the template. There were templates before mesh, and there are tons of texture packs. None of this is new to the SL marketplace. I agree that template users should not want the same gratis as original mesh designers–but in some cases, again, you did not address that designers on SL may also be purchasing mesh items and textures made by someone else to purchase rights and resell.
I totally agree with you Hottest. Comparing designers who use templates thats been BOUGHT at marketplace – often for conciderable amounts of money – with people who sells fake Gucci-bags is not only a horrible accusation, it also reveals a total lack of understanding of the counterfeit operations that goes on in the RL fashion world. Any RL fashionista would laugh at this comparison.
Another point is – does people really think that Karl Lagerfeld or Dolce and Gabbana sits and embroiders their clothes themselves? A lot off modern fashion houses buy these services from elsewhere, simply because few people want to pay for in-house created haute couture anymore. It’s how it was done 50-60 years ago, not today. If you don’t understand haute couture, go look it up in the dictionairy.
Like you Hottie – I do not care to be “schooled” at what it takes to be an artist.
I was about to say what Hottest said – that’s very obvious (specially in hair creation), that people have been posting around for others to create their mesh and buying source mesh with rights UNLESS, of course, all shops have the same “muse” to release simultaneously the same sort of mesh pieces on the same week as we have been noticing (Example: the recent very unusual and “coincidental” spiral mesh lengths seen on big names). It’s very clear that someone outside of SL has been creating these things and selling to the main-streamers. It’s not on Marketplace with full perms, but it’s template anyways. Why witch-hunt who’s being open about it like Meli?
I believe it’s one person’s original mesh creation if I see snapshots of the creation process on their blog. And even then, they can ask the person they hired to send them that. 🙂
There are a lot of websites out there where you can hire 3D sculptors very cheap to create you mesh content and sell in SL. And there’s also a LOT of items on Marketplace that are obviously coming directly stolen with less polygon from sources like Daz3D. I get appalled every time I look. These people might think people do not recognize them, but they do. And some are nit-picky enough to show it to Daz. Eventually some big names will implode.
As far as clothing goes, a lot of brands have been using Marvelous Designer 3D and its templates (http://www.marvelousdesigner.com).
I’ll buy mesh templated stuff IF it’s a reasonable price (IE: I’m not gonna spend 300 L for a shirt that I can buy the template for for 250/400(, and I use mesh templates, I like creating stuff, but I don’t have the skill to make sculpties or mesh, just textures, and even then I need a base texture to tell me where all the curves and crannies are. However, I sell for a very reasonable price, and NC the creators store/MP link along with anything else I use that isn’t made by me.
I’m the owner of the Muka shop and I create my own meshs & textures. I didn’t mind mesh templates at first but it’s true that it’s getting overused and often by lazy creators that just apply a very basic texture to it. Hopefully customers are picky enough to search for good textures and/or original meshs.
On the other hand what really annoys me is creators using meshs from games/softwares, like Analu said I hope the actual copyright owners will react to this. Another thing that annoys me is creators editing their ads like crazy, you end up buying something that looks nothing like what the ad depicts :/
I don’t mind buying a item created by a full perm, however, I wouldn’t buy an item that has an unreasonable price, a fair texture and it’s based on full perms.
It took me about months to learn how to create properly mesh to second life even without ever having contact with any modelling program. But I achieved this as consequence of my commitment with my goal.
If the person really wants to improve their habilities and go after their goals and dreams, they will get there. The fact is that many stores that sells items based on full perm don’t have efforts to go after their goals, so it ends as it is.
I would fully support newly stores that are evolving on their original creations even though they’re not so good. I believe that anytime, they’ll get there!
A lot of times irl, I’ll go thrifting, buy a ton of cheap jackets and shirts, and then redesign the clothes with screen prints or stencil work. How is this different from reselling mesh templates with your own textures? Is there more merit in me buying a brush or printing screen and physically texturing the shirt in real life? I don’t get it.
Manna is pretty much right: “SL will become a “game” of professionals or a small elite céators / designer can express themselves, and they will put the market at will. Closing the door to alot of people who would also like to express themselves in a creative way. ”
Many innovative designers that used sculpty templates like ufo, mijn, runoruno, ca, etc etc, where the question of ‘templates’ never came up, either gave up, or texture now mesh templates. Still in unconventional ways, but its not the same anymore, as they are now at will of the (non-editable) mesh.
The people who do have the ability to do mesh use it in highly conventional ways, as it sells best. We see this already on the feeds where in the last year the variety of SL became reduced to RL catalog fashion. Worst example for me is ColdLogic, frozen to an avatar plastic armor shell, generating endless stiff clones. At first i was irritated by the Imako templates with 400 different textures over the grid, but more and more the ColdLogic clones freak me out, as they are much easier to identify. Which sounds like a contradiction but less choice has this effect.
Late to the game but following this discussion with interest. When I first started buying mesh the templates didn’t bother me because it seemed that everyone used them, so it never occurred to me that original mesh designs were a thing (I was also new to SL and didn’t really know how product creation worked). After a while, though, I started to notice a few things: there were certain “freebie” type stores that basically sold the un-retextured Imako templates for 1L; and whenever a new Imako template was released there would be a “rush” of new releases from creators, all of them peddling slightly different (but mostly identical) products. It got to the point where I could actually spot the latest template release because at certain weekly sale events, there would be three or four creators selling baggy pants, or flat ankle boots, or cuffed denim shots. Now that I’m aware of this assembly-line approach, I tend to avoid templates. Once and a while I’ll purchase them if they’re really cheap, have an interesting texture, or if they’re just going to make up a small part of my outfit.
The downside to shopping for original-mesh only is that the creators tend to release their products more slowly, and no wonder: they’re actually doing a lot of work.
What I’m really wondering, though, is if anyone has thought about creating a list or database of the “original mesh creators?” I would very much like to support them, but I’m not entirely sure who they are…
Off hand, I suspect that the list might include Mon Tissu, Milk Motion, Toki Doki, G-Field, Tram, Monso, Tres Blah… who else? This is where a list or database would be helpful!
Texturing a template and modeling in a 3D program are nothing alike. Each one takes a totally separate skill set. Programs – like Blender – have very steep learning curves. I have always been able to pick up things fast, but Blender has nearly done my head in more than a few times. It’s complicated and the average Second Life user will not adapt to it well. To say people who know how to use Photoshop should have little problem learning a 3D modeling program is laughable. That is like saying that someone who knows how to use a cell phone should be able to fly the space shuttle. They are not comparable.
I see templated stuff as a collaboration. It’s rare to find people who are both equally skilled at modeling as they are at texturing. I give huge kudos to those who have talent with both; they are the exception and not the rule. Thankfully there are many people with varying skills who can come together to put out nice product. I don’t have a problem buying templated merchandise if the end result of the collaboration appeals to my likes; quality sculpts, mesh, rigging and textures.
I would like to point out to all the mesh snobs, your av itself is mesh and even buying system clothing,makeup,skins ect is buying mesh created by one person and textured by another.
That being said buying raw mesh templates and texturing them well is a talent that should not be taken lightly it does take talent and skill to create well done textures and no i don’t mean just applying a fabric texture overlay. Shadows ,wrinkles,stitching takes time and skill sometimes a full day so if done well even if a template is 250 charging 250 or more for it completed is not unheard off.
Hear, hear, supostabme. I am a designer who openly, honestly uses templates of all kinds in my designs as well as my 100% original, from-scratch work. I don’t lie about it either; well, why would I? Some folks just don’t want to be bothered with assembling the contents of a full-perm kit and just want something that’s ready to wear as-is; not only do I use my original textures on these mesh model templates, but I add value by way of various appliers (for mesh body parts like Lolas Tango, Phat Azz, Sking Brazilia, Perfect Bum, Ghetto Booty, [Banned] mesh booty, WowMeh, and Slink) as well as accessories, mesh shoes, etc. Many of my designs cost ME upwards of 2500L to create as an overall look… not to mention my time, which has value, and original textures, which, as you say, IS work that DOES require talent, and skill.
Original mesh is wonderful; I sometimes buy original mesh for myself to wear if I fall in love with the design. Any price these creators charge is a fair price, in my mind, as I have no idea how many hours they’ve invested to bring us that creation.
But to anyone who would say that there is no value in the work produced by those of us who do (especially, those of us who OPENLY) use templates in our designs, to you I will state the fact that you are not only a snob, but an ignorant fool.
Hm…let’s just ponder over the words “original” for a bit……what exactly defines an original design? I have been thinking about this topic for some time, and I would only label the actual creative brainwork – the idea – the look if you like — of a designer as original. A mesh itself – if copying a RL item – is in my opinion not original, it’s a mesh copy.
But I notice some designers (both clothes/shoes and furniture) mark their work as “original” – only to find the actual creation is an identical copy of a RL designer’s actual design. Where as I get that the technical mesh-work itself may be original – I still cannot regard anything that’s ripped from a real creative’s mind as an “original”. If not a template available for anyone to buy and just made for one shop – it is, in my opinion still not an “original” but just a mesh copy that is not mass produced.
I realize this is old post, sorry, but I just came upon it. I’m sad, embarrassed, discouraged that people who are not designers can come out against those wore are. I’ve been in SL since 09, and for years I made system clothing. When mesh came along, I left SL for a long time. I came back and gave a hand to using template mesh, with NO idea people were snubbing their noses at me. I’m so embarrassed. I thought SL was what you wanted it to be, not what a few bullies thought it “should” be. Also, some are delusional to think designers make all of which they sell. I know people who hire out. So stop judging. I just want to crawl in a hole and never come back to SL now that I know people regard me as a failure.
Hi Jo! I hope you see my response to your post. Please don’t ever feel discouraged when you’re creating something in SL that allows you to express your creativity and ideas. Yes, SLers can be extremely picky, but that’s just the residents that are aware of templates and such, most people just want something pretty and don’t really pay too much attention to original vs modified template.